# Anthropic Ditched Git. Here’s Why Your Agents Will Too

URL: https://securitytable.ai/anthropic-ditched-git-here-s-why-your-agents-will-too/
Published: 2026-10-28
Duration: 2688 seconds
Season: 4
Episode: 25
Hosts: Chris Romeo, Izar Tarandach, Matt Coles

## Show notes and chapters

Anthropic got tired of Git. With merges jumping from about 2,500 a day in May to more than 30,000 by September, a seven person team built Scion, a centralized, always online source control system designed for agents instead of people. Chris sees the start of rebuilding everything around agents, while Matt keeps pointing out that write ahead logs, RPC and server side merges are SVN and Perforce with better marketing, borrowed from Google's Piper and Meta's Sapling and Mononoke. Izar asks what happens when infrastructure gets so comfortable for agents that humans stop looking, and Matt notices the article barely mentions security until Chris finds the access control section. Along the way the hosts take on AI job interviews, Claude's excessive validation during an adversarial review, LLM knockoffs of Adobe, Microsoft and beehiiv, and why Norton is still selling fear to people who don't know better. Everything old is new again; it just runs a thousand times faster.

Mentioned in this Episode:  
➜ [Redesigning source control at Anthropic](https://www.anthropic.com/engineering/redesigning-source-control)  
➜ [Mononoke](https://github.com/facebook/sapling/tree/main/eden/mononoke)  
➜ [Geim becomes first Nobel & Ig Nobel winner](https://www.improbable.com/2010/10/05/geim-becomes-first-nobel-ig-nobel-winner/)  
➜ [Creator of Free Adobe Suite Strikes Again, Reverse Engineers Microsoft Office](https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/creator-free-adobe-suite-microsoft-office)  
➜ [PhotoCraft](https://github.com/storytold/photocraft)

Chapters:  
00:00:00 - Cold Open: Welcome Aboard the Starship Enterprise  
00:02:07 - Mythbusters and Laser Blasters  
00:03:35 - The Ig Nobel Awards  
00:04:54 - From Levitating Frogs to a Real Nobel Prize  
00:06:07 - An AI Negotiates a Lower Salary  
00:06:44 - Job Interviews With a Model  
00:07:52 - Resume Filters and Keyword Bingo  
00:09:03 - Let Humans Do the Hiring  
00:10:38 - Article Intro: Anthropic Doesn't Use Git  
00:11:05 - Memory Lane: CVS and Visual SourceSafe  
00:11:49 - Meet Scion  
00:12:58 - A Seven Person Team With Unlimited Tokens  
00:13:53 - Why Not Perforce or SVN?  
00:15:12 - Built on Google's Piper and Meta's Sapling  
00:16:31 - No Offline Mode in an Agentic World  
00:17:42 - Matt's Case: An LLM Librarian for Your Repo  
00:19:25 - Write Ahead Logs: Everything Old Is New Again  
00:20:36 - Centralized, API Driven Source Control  
00:21:54 - Not a General Replacement for Git  
00:22:26 - Closed Source, and an Ad for Claude  
00:23:11 - Is This Actually Exciting?  
00:23:53 - Izar's Rebuttal: Optimizing Infrastructure for Agents  
00:24:59 - SCN, Not SVN  
00:26:20 - Where's the Security?  
00:27:30 - It's Basically a Distributed File System  
00:27:57 - Monorepos Are Back  
00:30:12 - Claude's Excessive Validation  
00:31:38 - Reasonable Security and Pepperidge Farm  
00:33:35 - Inspired by Meta's Mononoke  
00:35:01 - LLM Knockoffs of Adobe and Microsoft  
00:36:30 - Cloning beehiiv in 24 Hours  
00:38:56 - LifeLock, Norton, and Predatory Security Sales  
00:42:03 - Closing Statements  
00:44:37 - Outro

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## Transcript

**Chris Romeo (0:09)**: Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon. Welcome to the Starship Enterprise, where Captain Izar Terran-Denosh is on a mission to— what was their mission that they were on? I can never remember. Why were they flying?

**Izar Tarandach (0:25)**: Oh, that was the continuing Voyager mission. To boldly go where no man has ever gone before.

**Chris Romeo (0:32)**: That's right. That's our tagline for AI. Go where, where nobody's cared to go. Mm-hmm. Where nobody's cared to go. That's what it is. Isar, that's, this is a record for Isar to start typing in an episode.

**Izar Tarandach (0:51)**: I need to sign in again.

**Chris Romeo (0:53)**: He gets offended and then he starts typing to his AI for support.

**Izar Tarandach (0:58)**: I wasn't offended. I like Star Trek.

**Chris Romeo (1:01)**: It's much more than I like the other

**Izar Tarandach (1:03)**: star thing.

**Chris Romeo (1:03)**: Yeah. The other star thing. It's ridiculous. Doesn't make any sense. No logic about it.

**Matt Coles (1:08)**: Who would leave that giant hole in the middle of that giant thing? Right. Come on.

**Chris Romeo (1:12)**: Listen, to, to, to sum it up, they made how many Death Stars? 3. And they all had the same problem. Come on. Threat model that thing.

**Izar Tarandach (1:22)**: I'm sorry, but the 3—

**Chris Romeo (1:23)**: or even R2-D2.

**Izar Tarandach (1:25)**: I, the, the, the whole, The whole universe is held by a magic force that lives in your mitochondria, and you are worried about a hole in a Death Star.

**Chris Romeo (1:34)**: I just look for the plot problems in something, and it's like,

**Izar Tarandach (1:41)**: how come that? I'm just gonna say books have been written on the subject.

**Chris Romeo (1:45)**: True.

**Matt Coles (1:45)**: How come, how come the, how come the, all the guys with, how come all the guys in the white suits with laser blasters can't hit anything?

**Chris Romeo (1:53)**: That's also a good point. Why don't they improve their training regimen? Do they ever actually shoot anybody? I don't think they do.

**Matt Coles (2:00)**: Very rarely. They, they shoot each other, I think more so. Yeah.

**Izar Tarandach (2:04)**: Let me tell you this. I have seen things.

**Matt Coles (2:06)**: Okay. Did anybody watch the Mythbusters episode where they actually tested that out? What?

**Izar Tarandach (2:13)**: I missed the Mythbusters.

**Matt Coles (2:14)**: Well, the laser blasters, first off, lasers don't shoot in like little things that travel, right? They, they would shoot a laser, which is

**Chris Romeo (2:22)**: like, it would be you wouldn't be able to see it.

**Matt Coles (2:24)**: You wouldn't be able to see it. No, but the, the, and it would be continuous.

**Izar Tarandach (2:26)**: The camera was faster than light.

**Matt Coles (2:29)**: Right. Okay. So it, it acts like a wave more like a, more than a particle.

**Izar Tarandach (2:35)**: Um, but depends on how you're looking at it.

**Matt Coles (2:37)**: You should, you should watch the, you should watch the episode if you haven't. It, it's excellent.

**Chris Romeo (2:41)**: There's a lot of Mythbusters I should watch, but I never do and I'm probably never going to.

**Matt Coles (2:46)**: Okay. So how,

**Izar Tarandach (2:47)**: that was a

**Matt Coles (2:47)**: good, have your, have your favorite, favorite AI watch it for you and then Summarize it.

**Chris Romeo (2:52)**: That's even better idea. And then I'm gonna tell it just not to tell me about it, cuz then it's been watched. I can say, yeah, part of my team watched it. What'd you get out of it? I don't know. Let me ask.

**Matt Coles (3:03)**: Busted. That's, that's all you need is busted.

**Chris Romeo (3:07)**: My favorite MythBusters episode is gonna be the most bizarre thing that anybody could list as their favorite episode. It's the one where they investigate whether running in the rain Is actually fast, is actually, do you get as wet, more wet or less wet if you run across a rainstorm?

**Matt Coles (3:27)**: Uh-huh.

**Chris Romeo (3:28)**: And they found out it doesn't matter. It doesn't do any good to run. You still get the same amount of, of rain on you.

**Izar Tarandach (3:35)**: Okay.

**Matt Coles (3:35)**: So yeah.

**Izar Tarandach (3:36)**: Let me ask you this. Have you ever heard of the Ig Nobel Awards?

**Chris Romeo (3:41)**: No,

**Matt Coles (3:41)**: I, I have actually, but I don't see them there.

**Izar Tarandach (3:44)**: No, the Ig Nobel Awards are something that happens once a year.

**Chris Romeo (3:48)**: Okay.

**Izar Tarandach (3:49)**: And it takes on serious academic research and gives premiums for the most outrageous. So one of the ones that I saw was research on, is it true that buttered bread always falls with the buttered side down?

**Matt Coles (4:05)**: That was also a MythBusters episode.

**Chris Romeo (4:07)**: That's important.

**Izar Tarandach (4:09)**: Wait, let me—

**Matt Coles (4:10)**: I mean, that's one of, uh, that's one of Murphy's laws, right? So.

**Izar Tarandach (4:14)**: Uh, give me—

**Chris Romeo (4:16)**: I think it's one of the laws of thermodynamics actually, isn't it?

**Izar Tarandach (4:19)**: So then,

**Chris Romeo (4:20)**: fourth

**Izar Tarandach (4:20)**: law, best winners of the law.

**Matt Coles (4:25)**: Technically the bread is, is flat on one side and, and, and curved on the other side with a little bit of weight. So it has a changed aerodynamics as it falls. But

**Chris Romeo (4:34)**: true. Where, how did we get here?

**Matt Coles (4:36)**: I have no idea. Isar did it.

**Izar Tarandach (4:39)**: It's always me.

**Matt Coles (4:41)**: And actually, it may be Isaur, or it may have been Claude.

**Izar Tarandach (4:45)**: Okay. So really, Isaur? What? In the year 2000. Okay.

**Matt Coles (4:50)**: He's still going. There must be something else because—

**Chris Romeo (4:52)**: an LLM.

**Matt Coles (4:53)**: You can't turn him off.

**Izar Tarandach (4:55)**: Wait, there was an Ig Nobel Award for levitating a live frog with magnets.

**Chris Romeo (5:00)**: That's made it swallow magnets.

**Izar Tarandach (5:02)**: Now, the guy that won that went 10 years later to win the real Nobel Prize. For graphene. So he's the only person, he's the only person with both prizes, the Ig Nobel and the Nobel.

**Chris Romeo (5:15)**: Oh wow. Now can we submit our podcast for one of these awards or?

**Izar Tarandach (5:21)**: How about this one from 2009? A brother turns into a pair of gas masks.

**Chris Romeo (5:25)**: He's literally like an LLM. He

**Matt Coles (5:26)**: didn't even hear me. He is. Yep. Whatever question you ask, it's going to answer

**Chris Romeo (5:31)**: you. We have a new feature on the podcast here, folks. It's Izar LLM.

**Izar Tarandach (5:36)**: Not yet.

**Chris Romeo (5:37)**: Command line, Izar. You just type in Izar on your local computer.

**Izar Tarandach (5:41)**: So what is it that we were talking about today?

**Chris Romeo (5:45)**: See, he's just always trying to summarize the conversation.

**Matt Coles (5:48)**: We're trying to do the Turing test on the Izar before us.

**Chris Romeo (5:52)**: Let's see if we can get his context window to fill. How do we do it?

**Matt Coles (5:56)**: We're the only ones who can do this. Can you do this, Izar?

**Chris Romeo (5:59)**: Yeah, that's right.

**Izar Tarandach (6:01)**: I don't have a beard.

**Chris Romeo (6:03)**: See, the LLM's becoming alive. It's learning.

**Matt Coles (6:07)**: Oh, speaking of which, actually, I know it's not, I know it's not on our topic list for today, but I was reading recently that somebody, somebody sent their AI to an interview with an AI HR person.

**Chris Romeo (6:19)**: Yeah, I did see that. I saw that.

**Izar Tarandach (6:21)**: That's so funny.

**Matt Coles (6:22)**: And it negotiated a lower salary for him.

**Chris Romeo (6:24)**: A lower salary.

**Izar Tarandach (6:26)**: That actually reminds me of a funny, forget about it. Okay.

**Chris Romeo (6:30)**: Wait, did that one, did that go through the whole interview process?

**Matt Coles (6:33)**: I think so. I don't know if it went through the whole interview process, but it went to the point of negotiations. So

**Chris Romeo (6:38)**: I, I'll tell you what, I was waiting for you.

**Matt Coles (6:41)**: I tell you,

**Izar Tarandach (6:42)**: I'm waiting for you.

**Chris Romeo (6:43)**: Okay. I was, no, a friend of mine's been going through the job interview process right now, and I was, I was asking him questions, just trying to understand how the world has changed. And he described having to go through an interview with a model. An AI performed the interview in text chat and he had to like, and it kept like asking more questions. So he would give an answer and then it would ask a refining question about something that he, that he, he had answered. But I did, I guess I just didn't realize that the world had gone to this.

**Izar Tarandach (7:21)**: That's not an interview, that's an interrogation.

**Chris Romeo (7:24)**: True.

**Izar Tarandach (7:25)**: and it's load-bearing.

**Chris Romeo (7:26)**: He needs a job. And so, but I was like, is that, it's not even the, the, the filter, the HR using AI to filter resumes. Now, if you get through the first filter, then you have to get through the model itself, which also made me think about how I would prepare to be able to defeat the model. In that case.

**Matt Coles (7:52)**: So unfortunately, I know somebody else who's going through the interview process and, or the filtering process. Apparently it looks for keywords.

**Chris Romeo (8:00)**: Yep.

**Matt Coles (8:01)**: But if it finds all those keywords, it rejects the, the resume because

**Chris Romeo (8:05)**: it thinks it's

**Matt Coles (8:05)**: LLM-generated. But you need all the keywords to pass the filter.

**Chris Romeo (8:10)**: Well, you also need 15 years experience in something that's only been out for 2 years.

**Matt Coles (8:16)**: Yeah.

**Chris Romeo (8:16)**: That was the funny one. I saw some guy that was an open source library.

**Izar Tarandach (8:20)**: That means that you're experiencing very fast.

**Chris Romeo (8:22)**: But somebody who created an open source library was, that had been out for like 4 years, was interviewing for a job that required 6 years experience in the library that he created. I don't remember what his name was.

**Izar Tarandach (8:38)**: You just said, you just said that you've been thinking about it for 2 years before you actually talked to somebody.

**Chris Romeo (8:41)**: Well, no, he's the one who invented the library. He was the person who authored and created it, and they wanted 2 years more experience than when he created it in it.

**Izar Tarandach (8:49)**: So you can say that he was thinking about it for 2 years. Yeah.

**Chris Romeo (8:52)**: He's probably the, be the only one, the only one really that was, uh, you know, potential for the job that had the experience, but,

**Matt Coles (8:59)**: and he still failed.

**Chris Romeo (9:00)**: Yeah. They probably still filtered him out with the model. But people do an interview with a human being, please, please don't let AI make your hiring decisions. We, we're really going off. We literally do have a plan for this episode, but I feel a soapbox moment coming on here. Have a human being interview a human being with another human being, please. Why do we have to be— why do you have to be interviewed by a model?

**Matt Coles (9:29)**: Unless it's a, unless it's a model hand model or, or—

**Chris Romeo (9:35)**: careful, Matt. Careful, Matt.

**Matt Coles (9:37)**: I was gonna say something, but I won't.

**Izar Tarandach (9:41)**: Careful. Is that a train coming down the—

**Chris Romeo (9:44)**: Yes, it was a train.

**Izar Tarandach (9:45)**: It's gonna crash.

**Chris Romeo (9:47)**: Pushed Matt outta the way and pushed Isak in front of the train.

**Matt Coles (9:50)**: Is that, is that one of those, is that one of those tests? Is it, there's like 6 people on one side and a, and a dog on the other side and that's the trolley.

**Chris Romeo (9:57)**: That's a trolley problem that you're describing there. Not the—

**Izar Tarandach (10:00)**: wait, you just used 6 people and a dog?

**Matt Coles (10:03)**: Yeah.

**Izar Tarandach (10:04)**: For 6 people.

**Chris Romeo (10:05)**: I was gonna say, I think that's where Matt was going. As we know, he's, he's a, a dog guy and yeah.

**Matt Coles (10:13)**: Yeah.

**Chris Romeo (10:13)**: I think he was alluding to the fact that he was gonna redirect the trolley towards the 6 people.

**Izar Tarandach (10:19)**: That's not even a thought.

**Chris Romeo (10:21)**: Will the, will the L, we think we tried this before. We did this already. Will the model do the, it'll, it won't do, it won't answer.

**Izar Tarandach (10:27)**: It won't answer.

**Matt Coles (10:28)**: Either it won't answer or it will kill the dog.

**Chris Romeo (10:30)**: Yeah. Interesting. All right, let's talk about something having to do with AI.

**Matt Coles (10:34)**: It follows the three laws of robotics and the three laws of robotics don't care about animals.

**Chris Romeo (10:38)**: That's right. We did figure that out. That's good. Cause I follow the three laws of robotics as well. So in general, all right, big news. So kind of big news. Anthropic doesn't use Git. Kind of an interesting idea. I don't know. For some reason I read this and I was like, Oh, that's cool. Wow. Didn't, I didn't think about this. I guess I just don't sit around and think about Git repos at mass scale.

**Matt Coles (11:05)**: Remember the day when Git was new and nobody used Git? Because once this thing— when was that?

**Chris Romeo (11:11)**: When did it come out? I don't even remember.

**Izar Tarandach (11:13)**: CVS was the thing.

**Chris Romeo (11:16)**: Did you say CVS?

**Matt Coles (11:17)**: CVS. Yeah. Or S, or SSVC.

**Chris Romeo (11:20)**: Oh, you mean CVS, the source code?

**Matt Coles (11:22)**: SSVC. No, not SSVCS.

**Chris Romeo (11:24)**: What does CVS stand for?

**Izar Tarandach (11:26)**: Concurrent Version System.

**Chris Romeo (11:28)**: Yeah. Oh man. I hadn't thought of that in a long time.

**Matt Coles (11:33)**: And then you had a visual, you had something by Microsoft that was like, oh my God, I can't remember. I used to work on it. Uh, it's been such a long time. Uh, the Microsoft Source Control System.

**Chris Romeo (11:42)**: Yeah. Yep.

**Matt Coles (11:44)**: Which was, which was, had its own challenges.

**Chris Romeo (11:47)**: So. It makes sense why Anthropic has created this new thing. They call it Scion, which is a server-centric replacement for Git.

**Matt Coles (12:00)**: Visual Source Safe. That's what I was looking for.

**Chris Romeo (12:02)**: Visual Source Safe. That's, man, memory lane has been engaged here and some of those memories I had blotted out and now they're back in primetime. So Anthropic figured out that They were pushing a lot of code. So they went from about 2,500 merged code changes a day in May 2026 to more than 30,000 a day by September. And what they figured out is Git's offline, every clone is complete design couldn't keep up because their main branch history alone grew to 100 gigabytes and CI is running roughly 25 million checkouts a day. It's basically what I do. So I guess I'm on par with a frontier model.

**Matt Coles (12:47)**: 600 petabytes of traffic per day is their estimate.

**Chris Romeo (12:52)**: That's a lot of petabytes.

**Izar Tarandach (12:54)**: That's a lot of petabytes.

**Matt Coles (12:55)**: That's a lot. That's a lot of bytes.

**Chris Romeo (12:58)**: So what they did though is they built this thing called Scion. They, and they really were, were happy to tote that it was done by a 7-person team. Of course, they do have unlimited access to tokens.

**Matt Coles (13:11)**: Yeah.

**Chris Romeo (13:11)**: Which, I mean, the three of us could build something pretty incredible if we had unlimited access to tokens where we could just say, go spend, you know, go have 7 groups, teams of agents of 100 each, go try to solve this problem. And then you decide which one's the best one and bring it back to us. Like if unlimited tokens would be a, a fun opportunity.

**Matt Coles (13:35)**: Mm-hmm.

**Chris Romeo (13:39)**: Interesting. So yeah, go ahead.

**Matt Coles (13:41)**: No, go ahead. You first. Cause I'm just looking at what Anthropic actually did here.

**Chris Romeo (13:47)**: Well, now I'm, now I want to hear what you're, it sounds like you have an analysis of their technical

**Matt Coles (13:52)**: approach that I was going to say, why didn't they just use Perforce or SVN or one of those other systems that we know works without doing the replication that that Git does.

**Chris Romeo (14:05)**: I know we were talking about this before we started. What— I just can't remember. Perforce. I remember Perforce. I've used it. I just don't remember. I was always just a user of source code control systems. Like it was one of those things where it was like, what are the least amount of things that I have to know about this to be able to use it so that I don't get fired?

**Matt Coles (14:29)**: And eventually somebody figured out how to make all the commands equivalent, so you could just use SVN, like you had a, you had an SVN to Git thing, so you could use Subversion commands in your Git repository at one point. Right. And so you had compatibility across the, you know, almost across the board, but some things were just weird.

**Chris Romeo (14:48)**: You mentioned Perforce, which I don't think exists anymore.

**Matt Coles (14:51)**: Perforce. It might, I don't know if it's in use. ClearCase was another one that was pretty popular.

**Izar Tarandach (14:58)**: ClearCase was bad.

**Chris Romeo (14:59)**: ClearCase.

**Matt Coles (15:00)**: Yeah.

**Chris Romeo (15:01)**: So glad you have a good memory for stupid control systems.

**Matt Coles (15:05)**: For crappy things that I really shouldn't be remembering.

**Izar Tarandach (15:08)**: He has a good memory for things I'm trying to forget.

**Chris Romeo (15:11)**: Yeah, that's right.

**Matt Coles (15:13)**: But it's interesting. I, I, so I was, I was being a little facetious about that, but then I looked and actually, you know, the very first, some of the very first information that Anthropic provides in their article here is that they used they use as reference for this project, two things around managing large or huge mono repos from Google and from Meta. And if you look at Piper, which is Google's thing, they started on Portforce and then they went to this thing called Piper,

**Chris Romeo (15:46)**: which is

**Matt Coles (15:46)**: homegrown, which is homegrown in 20— in 2012. They built it.

**Chris Romeo (15:52)**: Oh, wow.

**Matt Coles (15:53)**: Right. So this is not a new system. And it was managing something like 86 terabytes of data. And then Sapling by Meta, right? So Sapling looks a little bit more recent, at least on the, the fancy webpage you get to when you click the link.

**Chris Romeo (16:15)**: Yeah. Well, compared to Scion. Scion is the cutting edge at the moment.

**Matt Coles (16:22)**: Right.

**Chris Romeo (16:23)**: So, but it's all about in-memory.

**Matt Coles (16:24)**: They took these older, they, they took these older approaches to source control and reinvented it basically.

**Chris Romeo (16:31)**: Well, and they, they, you have to be connected to use it. There's no offline mode for what Anthropic came up with. Right. But in an agentic world, there is no offline because if you go offline, the agent can't talk to the model and it's no longer working unless you have a local model. Well,

**Matt Coles (16:48)**: if you do an enterprise deployment, you're probably at least locally online, meaning if you're, if you lose access to the internet, you're probably not dead in the water. So I guess it depends on how connected you have to actually be. You have to be connected to your model server and to your Git, into your source repository, which is like, which is like Perforce or SVN or those things where you were a client to a remote system, right?

**Chris Romeo (17:16)**: It seems like you would have to be connected though.

**Matt Coles (17:19)**: Yeah. But again, how connected? You have to be connected. If you're connected to your LLM, you can be connected to your—

**Chris Romeo (17:24)**: Yeah, I think it's, well, I don't know though, because it's a deterministic software solution. It's not just, it's not like they just created a model to do the search, to handle source code and like you just ask it, can I have these files? It's like, sure, here you go.

**Matt Coles (17:42)**: Well, actually, if you think about it, wouldn't it be a natural fit if that's what they actually did? And actually, if it's even possible, think of, think of LLM Wiki, right? So you talk to your model to manage a bunch of files. That's a knowledge base with a knowledge graph, right? Or OpenWiki or whatever the system is. So why couldn't you do that? And if you did, you could potentially build a knowledge base alongside your code repository and have explainability and other things like curated by the L— by the team of agents that are managing librarian system.

**Chris Romeo (18:20)**: Man, once again, Matt invents another thing on the AI security table. So if you just listen to this, that is patent pending, trademark pending.

**Matt Coles (18:30)**: Uh, although if Andrej Kapasi is out there, call me.

**Chris Romeo (18:33)**: All right. I'm trying to analyze the technical architecture.

**Matt Coles (18:37)**: That seems like it would be a natural fit and it would suggest you're always online, right? Your client. Oh, and I guess the other thing that, that Anthropics basically stated here was, so Git, you do all your work locally and then you push it to the remote system, right? That's where a pull request happens. And so instead, if all of the work is done there, there's no server, there's no client-to-server transfer. Right. Merge requests are done. If there's a concept of merge requests, code branching and things happen on the server side, right?

**Chris Romeo (19:12)**: There is a concept of merge requests and what they've done. It doesn't look like it's model driven. It looks like it's like they've created a deterministic set of tooling.

**Izar Tarandach (19:26)**: Well, it has to be deterministic, right? Because you want to know that the code that you think is there is there, but They define it as a write-ahead log.

**Matt Coles (19:35)**: Well, it does say in server, the server answers questions about file history. So there's probably an LLM attached to it.

**Izar Tarandach (19:42)**: No, they say that there's an API for it. So where there's an API, there's an MCP, but it is write-ahead log. Where have we seen this thing before? Write-ahead logs besides big databases.

**Matt Coles (19:57)**: Remind me of the feature of a write-ahead log.

**Izar Tarandach (20:00)**: It's a write-ahead log and change sets. This is starting to look very much like a ledger.

**Matt Coles (20:06)**: So that's like a normal source repository, right? I mean, before Git came along.

**Izar Tarandach (20:11)**: Yeah, but what is this?

**Matt Coles (20:16)**: SVN? Was it SVN or was it— there was another one. Yeah, it was SVN. Everything was a write-commit to a, to a database. And so you had, you had a transaction log, right?

**Izar Tarandach (20:26)**: And you could even rebuild the

**Matt Coles (20:28)**: Yeah, you could

**Izar Tarandach (20:29)**: reproduce from the log.

**Matt Coles (20:32)**: Rolling back a change was rolling back the transaction.

**Izar Tarandach (20:36)**: By exposing source control queries through an API rather than requiring a full local checkout, Scion allows automated jobs, including cloud-based coding agents, to inspect repository state, history, and metadata without the overhead of cloning or syncing a working copy.

**Chris Romeo (20:50)**: That's open. That's magic right there.

**Izar Tarandach (20:53)**: So it's centralized.

**Matt Coles (20:55)**: Yeah, it's a centralized— yeah, it's a centralized system. And what's interesting is the client maintains a bounded local object cache, lays out the working copy files, working copy files on disk, monitors for changes, and basically interfaces with the server. So it's a— obviously it's a client-server system. They've already explained that. It works through APIs. So the client's doing all of that work through APIs on the server.

**Chris Romeo (21:21)**: Brilliant.

**Matt Coles (21:23)**: Brilliant.

**Izar Tarandach (21:24)**: Reinvented the wheel. Why does it sound like, yeah, why does it sound like everything again, another case of everything that's old is new again?

**Matt Coles (21:30)**: Yeah. We had to reinvent because it's AI, but we use it to be able to—

**Chris Romeo (21:34)**: But it operates at a thousand times faster though.

**Matt Coles (21:37)**: Sure.

**Chris Romeo (21:37)**: The challenge was they were getting buried in the amount of effort it took for agents to clone, maintain, and then merge. Conflicts and everything across various branches.

**Izar Tarandach (21:53)**: And so, but they're saying Scion is by no means a suitable replacement for Git for general use. So they are answering a, but yeah, it's a very,

**Matt Coles (22:03)**: yeah, but why not?

**Chris Romeo (22:04)**: Because, well, because they're using it for agentic development and that's because that's what they do. They don't do human development anymore.

**Matt Coles (22:10)**: But why couldn't you, why couldn't it be a general replacement just because it's a distributed file system with, with. It's so the entire repository, the entire repository is distributed, right? Which means there's multiple, which means there's a multiple server system in the backend.

**Chris Romeo (22:26)**: Well, I think the reason they wrote that is because they don't want to open source it.

**Izar Tarandach (22:30)**: Yeah.

**Matt Coles (22:30)**: I thought it was open sourced.

**Izar Tarandach (22:32)**: It is.

**Chris Romeo (22:32)**: I don't know. I don't know. It's closed source. They're just, they've been writing these articles. They just had a great one on code review that we'll have to examine separately in a different episode. But they, these articles announce something really exciting, but then also bolster Claude's position. 'Cause like if you read this one, there is an underlying kind of explanation for how they used Claude to build the whole thing. They could never write something like this from scratch. They did it with 7 people. It's an advertisement for how good Claude is.

**Izar Tarandach (23:11)**: But is this really exciting?

**Matt Coles (23:15)**: It's, it's innovative. It's innovative in its use case, but not necessarily in its implementation.

**Izar Tarandach (23:21)**: Yeah, but is it exciting? Are we seeing riots in the streets of people clamoring, give me a new source management?

**Chris Romeo (23:28)**: My agents are. They're telling me all the time, this sucks. Why do you make me use this Git thing? It's terrible. This is a problem that you have to be. This is not a problem that everybody has. This is not a problem that everybody will ever have.

**Izar Tarandach (23:42)**: No.

**Chris Romeo (23:43)**: This is hyperscale, edge-of-your-seat, frontier-style company problem.

**Matt Coles (23:52)**: Mm-hmm.

**Chris Romeo (23:53)**: Today.

**Izar Tarandach (23:53)**: But it is, but it is in a way, perhaps this is not the most extreme case, but it is a case of rebuilding infrastructure to suit agents.

**Chris Romeo (24:05)**: Yes. Right.

**Matt Coles (24:06)**: But it's utilizing techniques and technologies that are not new, not agent-invented.

**Izar Tarandach (24:15)**: Right. My point is that—

**Matt Coles (24:16)**: So we had it, we were right all along.

**Izar Tarandach (24:19)**: My point is that if you start optimizing things like this for agents, at some point you are going to get into a place where it's going to be much more comfortable for an agent to work in things than for humans to step in and look at what the agent is doing. And then we close the door and everybody goes to the beach to drink Mai Tais or something. I don't know. But the point is that we are starting to optimize things to, to, for agents. And at some point that may come back. Did I just say that? Then it may come back and bite us in the, uh, behind.

**Chris Romeo (24:52)**: But this is just the beginning. This is the beginning of optimizing everything for agents.

**Matt Coles (24:59)**: Okay. So funny thing. Their client name is SVN.

**Izar Tarandach (25:04)**: SVN?

**Matt Coles (25:05)**: SVN, not SVN. SVN.

**Izar Tarandach (25:07)**: I would be, I would be writing an alias so fast. Not even funny. It took me years to stop typing SVN.

**Matt Coles (25:19)**: It does claim that it's less CPU intensive than Git servers.

**Izar Tarandach (25:23)**: I'm sure it is. Cause it's from what I understand, and that's not a lot. It's just writing ahead and hoping that something fixes the conflicts down the road.

**Matt Coles (25:34)**: The Cyan daemon, the Cyan cache, and the Cyan server all respond to identical RPCs for this protocol.

**Izar Tarandach (25:43)**: Or to tell you the truth, because it does have an API and it is API-based, it could be a way to write code, already send it to review, and only after the review, the thing gets committed or something.

**Matt Coles (25:57)**: Well, all the changes happen on the server and it uses RPC calls. Where have we heard that before? Everywhere. Well, NFS, MCP.

**Izar Tarandach (26:09)**: MCP.

**Matt Coles (26:11)**: MCP is RPC underneath, if I remember correctly.

**Izar Tarandach (26:15)**: It can, it may, it may use SDIO or whatever, but it can.

**Matt Coles (26:20)**: But it's basically RPC. RPC is not a new concept. It works well. One thing I do know that's missing from this conversation, and given the name of our podcast, I don't see a mention of security anywhere in this article. Now, on the plus side, it's a server-based defined APIs. That's, that's a well-known security problem. Right? How to protect that?

**Izar Tarandach (26:50)**: I'm sure that there are tokens everywhere and token exchanges and some cabbers somewhere and somebody passing a hash.

**Chris Romeo (27:00)**: They do mention security.

**Matt Coles (27:02)**: Oh, they do mention security.

**Izar Tarandach (27:03)**: They say we don't have any.

**Chris Romeo (27:05)**: Not that I detected it myself, but a friend of mine was just telling me about it. They discussed access control. They built what they called a rich source control IAM system. Supports access control at the repo level and permissions on individual directories. So the most sensitive code could be locked down without splitting a monorepo.

**Matt Coles (27:25)**: We, uh, we laid the groundwork for new forms of monorepo security. Yep.

**Izar Tarandach (27:30)**: But when you, when you said RPC, you turned on a bulb for me. NFS. This doesn't seem to be very different from a file system for source code.

**Matt Coles (27:41)**: The only difference is there's a server managing the file system as opposed to the client.

**Izar Tarandach (27:46)**: It's a distributed file system.

**Matt Coles (27:48)**: Right. Pretty much. Yeah. And we know how to secure that. That's like a, not a new thing. What I'm, I guess the other part that I'm sort of really touching, I guess what I'm really focusing on as I read this, everything is a monorepo.

**Izar Tarandach (28:06)**: Yeah.

**Matt Coles (28:07)**: Why?

**Izar Tarandach (28:09)**: Why not?

**Chris Romeo (28:09)**: Because that's where everybody lives now. Yeah. They're back to monorepos are cool.

**Matt Coles (28:14)**: But monorepos is just a behemoth of data, right? I mean, if everything is in one repo and you don't consume other things, right? I mean, dependencies live in other repos.

**Izar Tarandach (28:28)**: Look, as anybody who ever checked out a repo that has a lot of other repo dependencies and just watches the thing check out other things by itself, right?

**Matt Coles (28:40)**: And you go, wait, I didn't ask for 8 billion gigabytes of data.

**Izar Tarandach (28:45)**: The point is, from an architectural point of view, talking monorepo or microservices or whatever, that makes absolute sense. But to go back to the repo itself and say, oh, it's a monorepo, it's big. Okay, so it's 1,000 microservices and you need all of them for your local tests. That's not big. That's not Whatever it is. So I don't know, just that's the first thing I would

**Matt Coles (29:11)**: say. So model repo makes it a bounded problem. By calling it, by calling and enforcing it as a model repo, you have a bounds to the size and the complexity problem.

**Izar Tarandach (29:23)**: But it's theoretic because at the end of the day, you need the whole thing to get it running, right?

**Chris Romeo (29:29)**: Yeah. And they've created this in such a way that it it, it doesn't really matter how big the repo is, what's in the repo, whether you had 75 repos, it's still like, I like where you guys were landing on this. It's just a, it's just a virtual file system that operates at 1,000 miles an hour and you can, you can swap out individual tiny pieces and it tracks it all so that it doesn't destroy the whole.

**Matt Coles (29:58)**: Right. And maybe you get—

**Chris Romeo (30:00)**: Integrity of the source code.

**Matt Coles (30:01)**: And maybe you get some benefits along with it, like explainability or, or traceability and whatnot. Yeah. This seems like, this seems like a win. There's, there's, this is good stuff.

**Chris Romeo (30:12)**: I wanna throw out something here that, that the article frames as a negative, 'cause I think this is worth exploring a little bit in this newfangled age of AI. So they did an adversarial review against Scion using Claude, and the output of that was overly cautious about trusting another internal service. And so then Claude added excessive validation. That's their assessment, excessive validation in response to something from this adversarial review. And then they, they claim they steered Claude back. To reality to not over-engineer some type of response to a, a potential weak area, you know, internal service validation. That's happened to me too. What do you, what's your take?

**Izar Tarandach (31:07)**: It has happened to me too.

**Chris Romeo (31:08)**: Yeah.

**Izar Tarandach (31:09)**: But I was Claude. I was Claude in that, that scenario.

**Matt Coles (31:12)**: People had to, there's a t-shirt idea for you.

**Izar Tarandach (31:15)**: Yeah. It was like, yeah, Claude been there.

**Chris Romeo (31:19)**: Okay, so people were trying to argue that, yeah, I get it now. Okay. We've probably all been there or there. Well, you're just being excessive. That's why they pay us here is it's not to be, you know,

**Izar Tarandach (31:38)**: that, that's why we came to and came up with a reasonable security, right?

**Chris Romeo (31:41)**: Yeah.

**Izar Tarandach (31:43)**: Remember that? Remember?

**Chris Romeo (31:45)**: Remember when?

**Izar Tarandach (31:46)**: Remember when?

**Chris Romeo (31:47)**: It's a country song's about to start here.

**Izar Tarandach (31:50)**: Pepperidge Farm, remember

**Chris Romeo (31:51)**: Pepperidge Farm?

**Izar Tarandach (31:53)**: Isn't that how it goes?

**Chris Romeo (31:56)**: Pepperidge Farm. How can you, how can you prove to the world you're old without saying you're old? Make a reference to Pepperidge Farm. Do they even make Pepperidge Farm? People on this that are listening to this under the age of 50 are like, what are these? People talking about? It was a cookie brand, people.

**Izar Tarandach (32:17)**: I think— oh, wait, bird snappers.

**Chris Romeo (32:18)**: It was a cookie brand, right?

**Matt Coles (32:20)**: Oh yeah.

**Izar Tarandach (32:20)**: Yeah.

**Matt Coles (32:20)**: Full of high fructose corn syrup and—

**Chris Romeo (32:22)**: does it still exist?

**Matt Coles (32:23)**: Pepperidge Farm? Yeah.

**Chris Romeo (32:25)**: Yeah.

**Izar Tarandach (32:26)**: I don't know.

**Matt Coles (32:26)**: How else do they remember?

**Izar Tarandach (32:27)**: They remember.

**Chris Romeo (32:28)**: Yeah. No, we remember. That's 'cause we're old. Like Matt, you went through and traced every source code control system since 1974 from memory.

**Matt Coles (32:38)**: From memory.

**Chris Romeo (32:38)**: So this is a, this is a group that's a little bit different than the rest of the world.

**Matt Coles (32:44)**: Yeah, we have long-term contextual storage memory, but the Pepperidge Farm, of course Pepperidge Farm exists. I walk by the display case every time I'm in the supermarket.

**Chris Romeo (32:56)**: You pay much more attention to the world around you than I do.

**Izar Tarandach (32:58)**: You still go to the supermarket?

**Matt Coles (33:01)**: What do you do for food?

**Chris Romeo (33:02)**: How do you eat?

**Izar Tarandach (33:05)**: Is that everybody ordering all the time?

**Matt Coles (33:07)**: Is it just me?

**Chris Romeo (33:07)**: It's just you.

**Matt Coles (33:08)**: It's just you.

**Chris Romeo (33:09)**: Damn it. Man, bourgeoisie over here.

**Matt Coles (33:12)**: Wow.

**Izar Tarandach (33:13)**: No, I call it laziness. Who has the time to cook?

**Chris Romeo (33:16)**: It's just, it's just the busyness of life.

**Matt Coles (33:18)**: So do you ask Claude to order you food?

**Chris Romeo (33:21)**: Oh, there's an idea.

**Izar Tarandach (33:23)**: Actually, just ask my son.

**Matt Coles (33:25)**: Does, does, does pro— does, does, uh, protein— does calorie-dense food show up at your house? Because Claude—

**Izar Tarandach (33:32)**: Silent Green, man. Silent Green.

**Matt Coles (33:35)**: So, so I was just looking to digging at the end of the article in the footnotes. And it mentions something called Mononoke from Meta, which is one of the source repositories that they use as input, including a data model. So Mononoke is written in Rust and it has a data model that they basically, I don't know if they lifted it, but they used it as heavily influencing the development of this repository system that they built. So it's interesting to see they, they're not inventing something new. They're inventing something that is new for them and that is useful for their use case and probably for others based on technologies that have been seen. And of course we know this is how LLMs work, right? Training data.

**Chris Romeo (34:30)**: This is where LLMs excel. Is when you can point it at something else that's open source and say, make me one of these. Make me one of these, but in green. Yes. But just, yeah, make it a little different, little lighter green color to match my brand.

**Matt Coles (34:48)**: I know we will be talking at some point about also pointing it at something that's not open source and saying, make me one of these.

**Chris Romeo (34:56)**: That's possible too.

**Izar Tarandach (34:58)**: That's how you get, you get freedom, isn't it?

**Chris Romeo (35:01)**: What? It's been in the news the last couple of weeks, but you guys have seen the Adobe and Microsoft knockoff projects, right? Yeah. I haven't tried 'em yet. I need to just, I'm really curious on the Adobe side because, you know, I was a user of Photoshop, but not very good at it for a long time. Like used it for very special purpose use cases that I would now just ask a model to do for me.

**Matt Coles (35:29)**: There

**Chris Romeo (35:30)**: are

**Matt Coles (35:30)**: open source variations on many of those tools already,

**Chris Romeo (35:33)**: but there were, but there were, but this time somebody pointed an LLM at it and said, make a copy of this.

**Matt Coles (35:43)**: Right.

**Chris Romeo (35:44)**: And from what I understand on the Adobe side, they actually reverse engineered binaries and that's at least what I heard reported.

**Matt Coles (35:51)**: Yeah, we need to talk, we need to talk about that in more in depth because there's a whole host of interesting Challenges, I imagine with that, like if there's any lawyers listening.

**Izar Tarandach (36:00)**: No, let's not do the lawyer thing.

**Matt Coles (36:02)**: We don't need to do the lawyer thing, but I'm sure that somebody is.

**Chris Romeo (36:06)**: Yeah. I don't know that we have a lot of lawyers in our audience, but maybe,

**Matt Coles (36:10)**: maybe there's a, maybe there's an AI legal table out there somewhere.

**Chris Romeo (36:14)**: That could be another, could be another podcast for us. Yeah. We got a lot of opinions.

**Matt Coles (36:19)**: We do.

**Chris Romeo (36:20)**: We don't have a lot of facts to back it up, but we got a lot.

**Matt Coles (36:23)**: We stayed, we may have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, but Express.

**Chris Romeo (36:27)**: Oh, it's not just a regular Holiday Inn. Come on.

**Matt Coles (36:29)**: That's right.

**Chris Romeo (36:30)**: Another dated reference. But yeah, I think this is this, this whole creating software. Do you guys see the Beehive one?

**Matt Coles (36:40)**: No.

**Chris Romeo (36:40)**: From the last couple of days. So the founder of Beehive, it's like a newsletter. I use it to send the Reasonable AppSec newsletter. It's a pretty popular newsletter hosting site and they're trying to branch into other things.

**Matt Coles (36:54)**: Constant Contact used to be, or—

**Chris Romeo (36:57)**: Yeah, but imagine if it didn't suck. I used Constant Contact and they can be mad at me if they want. Make your software better. You should have made it better a long time ago. I don't even know how it is now. I haven't looked at it in a long time, but it used to be terrible. Okay. So to not have offended a good chunk of the tech population in the Northeast, let me try and do that to other somewhere else. So. What the, the CEO, founder, CEO of Beehive, I don't even know how big of a company they are at this point, like how much revenue or whatever, but they're a good size company, comes out and says, basically, you can't copy what we did. And then he tweets, it's like a, a large article tweet of all of their feature set, like broken down into 2 and 3 sentences at a time of everything that they, their platform does. Line by line. And so literally 12 or 20, 24 hours later, somebody responds to it and says, hey, I built it and I'm now charging half the price. And then he had to backpedal and say, well, it's, it's all about deliv— people were like, it's all about email deliverability. And that's what, that's, they, Beehive gets you 99.4% email deliverability or whatever. But I'm just sitting there thinking to myself, there's a lot of email providers in the world that can warm up an email path for me in a couple of days. But it's not, Beehive doesn't have that counter. But it was like, I don't know what the Beehive CEO was thinking was going to happen as a result of like, the argument he, I think he was trying to make was like, oh, you can't copy, you know, this whole idea of AI being able to copy people. Isn't, isn't real, isn't possible. And then somebody does it in 24 hours, comes back with, and then starts offering it on the thread at half the price of what Beehive sells for.

**Matt Coles (38:56)**: Apparently some, apparently somebody watched and believed the LifeLock commercial.

**Izar Tarandach (39:03)**: Yeah.

**Chris Romeo (39:03)**: That LifeLock guy got his identity stolen like 9 times while he was the CEO of LifeLock. So it didn't work, and we should have known.

**Matt Coles (39:17)**: Dude,

**Chris Romeo (39:17)**: that's a whole other episode about how people are being ripped off in the world of technology right now. Like, did you know, did you know Norton Antivirus is still a thing?

**Izar Tarandach (39:32)**: Yes,

**Matt Coles (39:32)**: yes,

**Chris Romeo (39:33)**: that gets sold— I'm gonna say it— predatorily.

**Izar Tarandach (39:37)**: Yeah,

**Chris Romeo (39:37)**: to old people. And you know what, they could come for, come for me, bring it. Challenge me. I'll, I'll go in the public square and explain why you're predatory and you won't like the outcome of it because I'm not gonna be nice. Like they, it's owned by, it's not the original.

**Matt Coles (39:54)**: No, it's not. No, it's owned by a VC now, isn't it?

**Chris Romeo (39:57)**: Or PE or something like that. Yeah. But I just experienced it through the lens of somebody else's computer and I was like, what the What is this? Like, why are they trying to sell it? And it's like a fearmongering sales pattern. And I'm like, of course this is going to work on people who don't have a lot of experience in tech. They're going to feel like their arm's going to be twisted. I have to do this or my computer's going to fall apart or something.

**Matt Coles (40:29)**: Well, and AV solutions now, I think AV has been been done to death. And the value add that they, that they get you with is, oh, we searched your, your, your, your name from the dark web, or, you know, we look for these other threats against you that are nothing to do with malware.

**Chris Romeo (40:45)**: Yeah.

**Matt Coles (40:46)**: Right. And so they're branching out into other areas because naturally they're tied into all of your data, all of your systems, all your personal information, you know, et cetera.

**Chris Romeo (40:56)**: And they're that connected on the dark web. I'll just, I'll just poke around. I mean, I remember when the dark web was first becoming a thing and like all of us, I did some exploration and I'm like, man, people talk about this like it's Google for bad stuff. Like, no, it's very hard to find things. Like you really do have to have a lot of technical expertise to move around and to find things.

**Matt Coles (41:21)**: The dark web is basically the old internet before you had directory lookup services. Search engine indexing and a host of other things, right? That's the whole point about it being a dark web. It's all the websites that didn't get indexed.

**Chris Romeo (41:35)**: Yeah. And it's all over Tor, right? So it's in its own,

**Matt Coles (41:41)**: yep. Or it has, or it has space, WireGuard front end and things. It's like, it's got, it's got defenses so it doesn't get indexed. Yeah. And therefore it's not searchable. You have to sort of, it's sort of like with the island in the Pirates of the Caribbean, you can only get to it if you've already been there. You can only find it if you've only been there. That kind of thing.

**Chris Romeo (42:01)**: That's a good island. Yeah. All right. Well, I think that's it for this episode. We made it through one thing. We'll save self-replication for the future. Uh, we are trying to make—

**Matt Coles (42:11)**: and we can talk about clone and replace as, as a topic.

**Chris Romeo (42:15)**: Yeah. We're trying to make multiple versions of ISAR, so we'll save replication for next time.

**Izar Tarandach (42:21)**: Just promise me that you're going to add some patches.

**Matt Coles (42:23)**: Yeah. If, if we're gonna do this, we have to make it better.

**Chris Romeo (42:25)**: Did you ever see the, The movie with Michael Keaton where he's the, where they somehow he gets replicated and there's different versions of him. You should check it out.

**Matt Coles (42:35)**: I've seen that.

**Chris Romeo (42:36)**: It's pretty, it's especially in this age of thinking about replication becoming more of a potential thing. Like they have various IQ levels of the replicated versions and it's, it's just, it's pretty funny. I don't know.

**Matt Coles (42:51)**: The real Michael Keaton, please stand up.

**Chris Romeo (42:52)**: That's right. I think Marshall Mathers has a song about that.

**Matt Coles (42:56)**: Eminem.

**Chris Romeo (42:58)**: Well, I'm on a first name

**Izar Tarandach (42:59)**: basis. I'll have one. Thank you.

**Matt Coles (43:00)**: You're on a first name basis.

**Chris Romeo (43:02)**: Yeah. Call him by his stage name. Come on. We're hanging out. Come on. All right. Well, it's been real. It's been fun.

**Matt Coles (43:10)**: It has been real actually, hasn't it?

**Chris Romeo (43:12)**: Yeah. Other than we not, we're not sure if a, if Isar is a model or not at this point, but If

**Matt Coles (43:19)**: you are, you could write an article about it and be famous.

**Izar Tarandach (43:24)**: Dude, just walk around me in any security conference and the only conclusion you can have is that I am indeed a model.

**Matt Coles (43:33)**: Hand model, foot model, what type of model are you?

**Izar Tarandach (43:36)**: Yeah, let's go with hands.

**Chris Romeo (43:39)**: The world's first application security model. Supermodel. I am the security supermodel.

**Izar Tarandach (43:47)**: I am the model that your threat warned you about.

**Chris Romeo (43:52)**: ASSM. That's a new— don't put that on a t-shirt, please.

**Matt Coles (43:57)**: Please.

**Izar Tarandach (43:58)**: I'm out of the business of t-shirts.

**Matt Coles (44:01)**: We're going to need to put that on a t-shirt.

**Chris Romeo (44:01)**: Are you out of the t-shirt business?

**Izar Tarandach (44:03)**: I'm out of the t-shirt business.

**Chris Romeo (44:04)**: Dude, why? Stop burying the lead here. We're 46 minutes in and you're out of the t-shirt business?

**Izar Tarandach (44:09)**: I'm off. I'm off.

**Chris Romeo (44:11)**: He's out.

**Izar Tarandach (44:11)**: The world is not ready for my t-shirts.

**Matt Coles (44:14)**: We're going to need, uh, we're going to need the paparazzi at the next, uh, OWASP conference for, for Isar.

**Chris Romeo (44:18)**: We're going to have to hire some people if we want that to happen.

**Izar Tarandach (44:22)**: Which, by the way, people, is in the first week of November in San Francisco. If you haven't gotten your ticket yet, do. It's going to be fun. We're going to have an OWASP by Design minicon and yeah.

**Matt Coles (44:36)**: Party time.

**Speaker D (44:37)**: Thanks for joining us at the AI Security Table. Subscribe, rate, review, and follow wherever you listen. New episodes every week. AI Security on the Table.